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Loyalty as extended self, and its tension with integrity

7 tweets · August 2024 · 32 likes · 2 retweets · read on Twitter

Replying to jessicat @jessi_cata ·

I've been puzzled by the idea of loyalty as a virtue. Isn't it better to help who it would have positive consequences to help, or make mutually beneficial trades, or just do the right thing regardless of which person is involved? With commitments, I understand that keeping one's

@jessi_cata > The idea that people cannot be made to testify against their spouse is an encoding of an instance of this principle in law. iiuc it was originally actually related to the legal fiction of husband and wife as one person, applied to laws against self-incrimination!

@jessi_cata but if I assume that it's still about loyalty, then what I get is:  loyalty is about self-other boundary not about people earlier in time, but about those you include in your sense of self such that you back them for the same reason you back yourself!

@jessi_cata and this then highlights that loyalty and integrity can be in tension. a person who lies to get their friend off the hook is committing the same sin as a person who lies to get themselves off the hook. but the issue is the lying, not the loyalty!

@jessi_cata like a person with more integrity might loyally say to their friend "I love you no matter what but you gotta face that you fucked up here and deal with the consequences" (tbc: obviously if you're in a draconian regime, maybe lying IS appropriate)

Malcolm Ocean 🏴‍☠️ @Malcolm_Ocean ·

if sinning is where parts violate the whole that they're part of there's an inverse error (let's call it nissing) where a whole violates its parts in a way that undermines its health eg autoimmune disorders, exploiting workers/citizens, abusive relationships

@jessi_cata and from what I've heard of courts, they're often approximately draconian regimes/contexts. like tbh I think that probably having someone testify against their friend is bad and we shouldn't do it! (for similar but less strong reasons as having the spouse testify against)

@jessi_cata anyway, we've now built up to a frame of: loyalty+integrity means "I will stand by you and ALSO bear (some of) the costs of these consequences" (whether social, financial, logistical, psychological)

@jessi_cata ...this is clearly exploitable by someone with less integrity than you, which is why it's risky to let your loyalty to someone exceed your trust in their integrity! but that's dimensional: you might, say, continue to call your brother in jail but not pay bail the 3rd time.